PASTOR’S JOURNEY AND TRANSITION
I am your friend Dr. Charles Apoki, the area grandfather, and with me is Michael Brave. Michael Brave, yes sir, how did you meet me, sir?
Okay, I came across your video on YouTube randomly, and the first video just captivated me. Ever since then, I’ve been addicted—addicted is the best word I can use. I’ve been addicted to your videos. Wow! I literally watch them every day.
Wow, every day and you still create time to go out and run your business. You said you were a pastor?
Yes, I’m a pastor by calling.
Pastor by calling. So, what happened to the pastoral ministry? Okay, don’t tell me you are like me.
No, I pastored in a few mega churches around, and when I resigned from these churches, I started what you might call my own ministry. But I didn’t have the patience—I mean, I couldn’t imagine preaching and somebody sleeping. Those are the things that led me to shut it down. I’ve opened and shut down churches twice.
Wow, my own is once.
I mean twice. So, there’s someone crazier than you! I shut it down, and I also didn’t want to live on members’ tithes and offerings.
Wow, you didn’t want to live on members’ tithes and offerings.
No, I refuse to live off members’ tithes and offerings. I said I don’t have the time and space for this, and I decided to go into the e-hailing business. We will come to that. Yes, sir. How did you train yourself?
Growing up as a child, my parents were poor. I grew up in the city of Calabar, born and bred there, and lived in Calabar. Calabar precisely, in fact, people watching the video know me very well.
Are you sure they were poorer than my parents? I will tell a bit about how poor we were because we can laugh at poverty now.
Oh, my father, that is the biggest V. It was so bad that we had to feed from refuse dumps. It was so bad that we had to swallow gari from our neighbor’s food. Yes, neighbors cooked, made cold water gari, and we inhaled the aroma and swallowed the gari. That’s how bad it was. It was so bad that I had to use my school uniform as the only clothes I had for Sunday service and daily life.
A blue shirt and a white short sleeve. That blue shirt my father patched with yellow fabric so you could see me from afar. That’s a shirt of many colors, and you would know that it was made of yellow patches. I’m not even kidding—at age 11, JS1, 1990, I literally carried a cardboard sign around my neck and entered the Redeemed Church with the words “house boy for rent.”
House boy for rent?
Yes, I’m not kidding you, sir. House boy for rent. House boy for rent. Jesus Christ. I didn’t need anybody’s permission to do that because things were bad. But then I gave myself over to reading. I have been a voracious reader as a young man, and I’m saying this because of your testimony, sir.
As a young man growing up in poverty, I never had a shoe that I bought for 250 Naira from a park. My highest shoe was 250 Naira, but I had books. I bought one for 6,000 Naira once. I would tell my friends that I felt they should lock me up in a bookshop—just lock me in there, and go home, leave me there like that, just leave me there. I gave myself over to reading, and I read. I would keep like five different topics of books on the bed—I’d sleep with books on my bed. I read one, get bored, drop it, and read a different topic entirely. So the brain kept taking it in. I had three Ghana Must Go bags full of books.
What were you doing then to buy the books?
I was an okada rider for four years to buy the books, and I was reading. I became a PA to a pastor. I won’t call his name. I became his PA, and eventually, I left after about a year and six months. He told me a couple of years down the line that for two years, he could not find my replacement in that mega church. For two years, he could not find someone to replace me—a former okada rider.
What qualifications did you eventually have?
I did sociology and took some other courses in human resources and all that. Eventually, I ended up pastoring Winner’s Chapel. From riding, I kept developing myself. I gave myself over to endless self-development—endless self-improvement—never being satisfied.
Never Jesus Christ! And so, when I stumbled on your video and your testimony, I thought, this is my life. Sir, on my phone, I have over 1,500 audio books. I had to delete half of them to download your videos on my phone. I had to empty my phone of those other audio books to have your videos that I soak myself in every day.
Wow, you’re making me feel important.
You have changed my life, sir. And I’m so honored to meet you, sir. I’m so honored and privileged by God.
Let’s go on. So, you eventually lectured in Bible school.
Yes, I lectured in WOFBI, in Winners’ Chapel.
Wow.
Yes, I lectured in WOFBI, and I served in Winners’ Chapel. By the grace of God, I was privileged to serve in Canaan Land for about four years, two years as a WF pastor and two years as a full-time pastor.
Wow, this is getting more interesting, sir. Now let’s look at you, but people, women don’t like me because of the way I advise them. How have I influenced your marriage from my videos?
You have not just influenced my marriage; you have turned my marriage right-side up. Because, in one of your videos, you made a statement that I couldn’t sleep on: that intelligent people don’t stay married.
Wow.
That you need to be foolish to stay married. And you said you are happily stupid.
I’ve been happily stupid for 38 years. This year makes it 39 years of postgraduate stupidity.
Thank you, sir. Grandfather stupidity. And I took those words to heart, and I have peace in my home, sir.
You have peace?
Yes, I have peace. I am a no-nonsense person.
Just like me.
Yes, a no-nonsense person, but that video changed my whole life.
Gave you peace of mind.
Peace of mind. I became more affectionate towards my children. I could overlook certain things, became more loving to my wife, and the issue of sex is not even a problem anymore. I can give myself mental orgasms and just be mentally and intellectually fulfilled.
So, whether Jericho is open or not, Jerusalem is fine?
Yes, I’m just good.
You don’t derive happiness from somebody’s body.
Oh, my, don’t.
Those were the exact words.
Happiness has to be a native of your mind.
Thank you, sir.
The words—because the person you want happiness from is not satisfied with herself.
Those were the words that delivered me.
So you live beyond marriage.
The exact video.
You find your relevance in something else, not in your marriage.
The exact words. And I found freedom.
Does your wife watch my videos?
You know, the thing about a pastor’s wife—often, like you would say about your wife, sometimes my children don’t watch your videos.
Yes, because of what I call ‘benign familiarity.’
Yes, so when I first sent the video to her, I asked, ‘Have you watched the video?’ No, I’m like, okay. But yesterday, my wife was the one asking me whether I had watched your latest video on your thoughts on the protest. I’m like, oh, okay, she’s catching up.
Okay, focus.
Oh, my father. And so I have been so transformed.
Tell me about the t-shirt you wanted to wear.
Yes, sir. Yesterday, after I called you, and you gave me the honor of coming to see you today, I was wearing a beautiful t-shirt to use, and I had these rugged, torn jeans.
Yes.
To me, it felt like I was going to see the State Governor.
Yes.
If you were going to see the Lagos State Governor, would you dress like that? I said, ‘Oh, my father.’ He said, ‘Your dressing reflects the value you place on who you’re going to see.’
Have mercy on me.
Yesterday, your dressing reflected the value you placed on whom you were meeting.
I wouldn’t have done a video with you with the torn jeans.
Oh, my Father in Heaven, I wouldn’t. I sent Abraham to go and look at you first to make sure I was safe, and if not for the way you were dressed, you wouldn’t have come up here. My Father in Heaven. Because value is reciprocal.
Absolutely, sir.
And every person treats you with halo effect.
Yes, halo effect. I will reflect on you based on the kind of person dressed in a certain way. Now, I have to dress. I woke up, took my bath, dressed up.
Abraham asked, ‘Are you going anywhere?’ I replied, ‘I’m expecting a visitor I’ve never seen before.’
We have not seen before now.
Absolutely, sir. So, I placed value on myself. I never knew I was going to see Peter Okoye. I never knew I was going to meet Mike, and all. I never knew the pilots on the plane I was to enter knew me. I just realized that for every status, you need
a different dressing. Dressing well becomes your honorarium.
Exactly, sir.
That was what you did.
Yes, sir.
So let’s look at it this way. What have you gained financially from my videos?
My father, I have gained and gained, and I keep gaining.
You have been watching me for how long?
I watched you, sir, for a little over three months. I literally stumbled on your video, maybe the third week of March, early March.
Okay, four months now.
And from that time to now, I have made a little over 8 million Naira.
A little over 8 million in four months?
Yes, sir.
You watch only my videos?
I am literally addicted to your videos, sir.
Have you taken me as your pastor?
My father, you are more than my pastor.
You are my grandfather, and I am a grandfather. It’s a movement in my mind, and you said one thing: “Do not miss these people; you will discover yourself.” Yes, sir. I met you, I discovered myself, and the sky is the limit.
So, what were you doing then that I met you? You were running your ministry?
Yes, sir. I had tried many things, tried many things.
You see the difference between me and other pastors is that they are stuck in a kind of Ministry. My own is ministry without walls.
That’s why you are a grandfather.
We don’t even talk about grandfather.
Yes, we don’t even talk about grandfather.
You can’t define what I do. You know, I was telling them the other day that somebody said I look like a babalawo. He said I look like a babalawo, and you see, this doesn’t fit your persona. I told him that you don’t know who a babalawo is, so you don’t understand who a babalawo is. They told me that babalawo is a brain behind the throne, not the one dancing around.
Absolutely.
So, if you watch any of those things, you find out that the one dancing around is not the babalawo. They come to consult him, but he doesn’t make the decision. My Father in Heaven, now, the guy looked at me and said, ‘You can’t be a babalawo.’ I said, ‘You don’t even know who a babalawo is.’
Baba, I’ve learned so much, and I keep learning so much, sir.
Now, you’ve made 8 million in 4 months.
Yes, sir.
What exactly are you doing now?
So, I am a Bolt driver.
Bolt driver. That’s e-hailing, Bolt. E-hailing, Bolt, or Uber.
Yes, sir.
In Lagos?
Yes, sir.
I’ve been driving since 2020. I had issues, and I had challenges. When I resigned from the last church where I pastored, I sold my car and started riding Bolt and Uber. So, for about three years, I was just driving with just a survival mentality. In fact, I realized that I wasn’t even paying myself.
You were not paying yourself?
I was not even paying myself.
How do you mean by not paying yourself?
I would make money for the day, and then I would literally just use everything. I don’t even know what I do with the money, and I just existed. So, when I saw your video, and you mentioned that you should pay yourself, I became intentional about that. And then you made a video about delayed gratification, putting a hold on immediate desires for a future purpose, and I put those things to work.
Right now, I pay myself.
How do you mean?
You see, sir, I have a book where I write down my budget for the month. I do not touch my income.
I have seen it, and you have shown me. My God.
I don’t touch my income. I am so structured now that I am getting alerts every day.
What are you doing?
I pay myself.
Okay, how do you pay yourself?
I made a budget, and I literally pay myself every day.
Your salary?
Yes, my salary.
How do you mean by paying yourself? You remove it from the main earnings?
Yes, sir. I separate it.
You separate it from the main earnings?
Yes, sir.
Into another account?
Yes, sir. It’s so bad that I even use a different bank card, and I just move it straight into that account.
You are a pastor, you don’t believe in tithe and offerings, but you believe in paying yourself.
Yes, sir, yes, sir.
But you tithe.
Yes, sir. I pay myself, and I believe in tithing.
I remember you telling me that your money is safe because you pay tithe.
Yes, sir.
What about your family? Do you have children?
Yes, I have children. My son just finished JS3.
I thought you would be younger than that. You are looking young.
God bless you, sir.
Now, in doing this, I remember you telling me you are planning to get your own car.
Yes, sir.
That’s how you got your own car.
Yes, sir. I intend to get my own car. I have a plan to get my car. In fact, I’m even going further than that. I’m getting two cars. I’m going to employ two drivers.
You are going to employ two drivers. When?
By the end of this year.
What gave you the courage to go that way?
I would say, God, and I’m just focused.
How did I inspire you?
Oh, my father. You inspired me because there was a day you did a video, and you mentioned, ‘How long will you be broke?’ And I said, ‘Never again.’
The first day I saw you on YouTube, you said, ‘Poverty is a sin.’ I had never heard that in my entire life.
Do you agree with me?
Oh, my father, absolutely. Poverty is a sin.
Thank you, my brother. We should go and rest. You agree with me that poverty is a sin.
Absolutely, sir.
The problem is that pastors don’t know how to drive. You don’t drive a Toyota or a Mercedes.
You should drive a Toyota, a good one, and develop yourself. It’s not by being stagnant or being content with where you are.
Yes, sir.
So, you said you made 8 million?
Yes, sir.
How did you make that 8 million?
Oh, my father. When you drive, I pay myself every day.
How much is your salary every day?
So, I pay myself 20,000 Naira every day.
Every day?
Yes, sir.
So, you make an average of 20,000 Naira a day.
Yes, sir.
Now, this 20,000 Naira, you put it into another account.
Yes, sir.
My Father in Heaven. So, at the end of the month, it will be 600,000 Naira.
Yes, sir.
And that’s 600,000 Naira.
Yes, sir. 600,000 Naira every month.
So, in 4 months, you’ve made 2.4 million Naira.
Yes, sir.
So, the rest of the money is your expenses.
Yes, sir.
Is this thing called Bolt driving a profitable business?
Absolutely.
How much do you make on average per day?
On a good day, I make 40,000 Naira to 45,000 Naira.
On average, I make 30,000 Naira to 35,000 Naira.
Wow.
Yes, sir.
Let me tell you the secret about this whole Bolt business.
Oh, my father, yes.
How did you develop yourself? How do you think you make that kind of money?
Oh, my father, it’s so important that I have learned from you. You start your day early, get up early.
What time do you get up?
I wake up at 2:00 AM every day.
2:00 AM?
Yes, sir.
In fact, I was scared that you would pick me up.
I wake up every day at 2:00 AM.
Okay, okay, okay.
Yes, sir. Then I give myself to some form of exercise.
Wow.
Yes, sir.
And then you start going out?
Yes, sir. I do what is called morning devotion. I go out early.
What time do you get out?
I get out at about 5:00 AM.
You see, people don’t know. Every businessman that I have heard and come across wakes up early. A friend of mine told me that those who wake up late don’t make money.
No, they don’t.
Those who wake up late don’t make money. They can’t. Because there are a lot of customers looking for early riders. They know if you are picking them at 6:00 AM or 7:00 AM, they know they are going to get to the office early, so they prefer to call a Bolt or Uber driver to pick them early. You know, that’s why I’m afraid of doing it, because if I sleep late at night, I won’t wake up.
Yes, sir.
But I now try to sleep early, wake up at 2:00 AM, and start doing what I’m supposed to do. I realize that it’s the best time.
Yes, sir.
I was talking to a guy, and he said there are two times that he makes money: early in the morning and in the evening.
Absolutely.
During the day, it is so hot and people don’t even have time to call the Bolt driver.
Yes, sir.
But he said he will be so busy in the morning and evening. My Father in Heaven, if you are listening to me, that is the secret.
The secret of making money is to wake up early.
Yes, sir.
But don’t get in the way of pastors who go to church by 6:00 AM and tell you to come to church by 4:00 AM. That is rubbish. You are making money by that time. You can’t make money when you are not even in control of your own time.
No.
Go to church on Sunday. You don’t need to go every day to church. Have you heard a story of someone who will go to church every day? He doesn’t have time for himself. He doesn’t have a job.
Yes.
How many people have you given your business card to?
Sir, I literally give out my business card every day.
Okay, that’s good.
Yes, sir.
I drive, and when I pick up a client, I introduce myself.
Yes.
I just pick up people, and I don’t see them again.
No, I introduce myself.
You see that is the difference. When you are driving, you introduce yourself.
I make sure I give them my card, and I tell them to give me a call.
That’s a good thing. That’s why I’m telling people that you have to advertise yourself. No one will do it for you.
Yes, sir.
When you give them your card, they will know you. You are a pastor. You don’t need to go on a puppet to shout. Your office is everywhere.
Absolutely, sir.
You know, that is the problem with these pastors, is that they think that the church is the only place where God is. God is everywhere. You are a driver. God is there.
Absolutely, sir.
So, when you are doing this, when you are driving, you are also listening to the word of God.
Absolutely.
You are reading your Bible. You are listening to good music.
Absolutely, sir.
So, you are a driver. Now, I want to ask you a question.
Yes, sir.
What advice will you give to your fellow drivers?
Oh, my father, thank you, sir. So, for anyone watching this video, this is what I would say. The first thing is that you should have a goal in mind. You know what you want to achieve. I see Bolt driving as a way to an end. I am not going to be a Bolt driver forever.
So, it’s not going to be forever?
Absolutely, sir.
You should use it to raise money to buy a house or buy a car.
Absolutely, sir.
Or buy another Bolt car for somebody.
Absolutely.
So, you have a goal?
Yes, sir.
Then, what else?
The second thing is that you must have self-discipline.
Wow, self-discipline. How do you mean by self-discipline?
You must be focused.
Focus?
Yes, sir.
That’s why you said you wake up at 2:00 AM?
Absolutely.
You discipline yourself.
Yes, sir.
What about when people say, ‘Don’t drink, don’t smoke.’ What about that?
Absolutely. You don’t do anything that will not help your focus. You know, when you wake up in the morning and you drink, you are not disciplined.
Okay, what else?
Then, the third thing is delayed gratification.
Wow, delayed gratification. What do you mean by that?
You must put off immediate desires for a future purpose. You know, when you make money, you don’t just spend it.
So, don’t spend anyhow.
Yes, sir.
You delay gratification.
Yes, sir.
You don’t buy clothes when you need money.
Absolutely, sir.
You buy it when you can afford it.
Yes, sir.
You don’t buy a car when you need a car.
Yes, sir.
When you have money, you buy it.
Absolutely.
Okay, what else?
You must take God seriously.
Wow.
You must take God seriously.
How do you take God seriously?
Sir, you must give Him time. You must study your Bible, pray, and take your relationship with Him seriously.
When you are driving, you are praying in the car.
Absolutely, sir.
You are listening to the word of God.
Absolutely, sir.
So, it’s not that you have to sit in the church.
Yes, sir.
You can’t be in church and be making money at the same time. That’s why people don’t know. They think they have to go to church and pray.
Yes, sir.
I know you are a pastor, but you don’t go to church every day?
No, sir.
You can’t.
No, sir.
You see, I keep telling them that it’s a foolishness for a pastor to say, ‘Come to church every day.’ You have to go and work.
Yes, sir.
You know, you can’t be doing that.
So, what else?
You must value your customers.
Wow, what do you mean by valuing your customers?
You must be respectful.
You don’t talk anyhow.
Absolutely.
You respect them.
Yes, sir.
You value them, and they will value you.
Absolutely, sir.
That’s a good one.
Yes, sir.
Now, you are going to buy your own car.
Yes, sir.
What kind of car are you looking for?
I am looking for a Toyota Corolla.
Wow, a Toyota Corolla.
Yes, sir.
That will be good for you.
Yes, sir.
Now, when you do that, you are going to get more customers.
Yes, sir.
You are going to get more customers, and you are going to employ more people.
Absolutely, sir.
That is what I’m telling you. This is the secret. You have to be focused. You have to have a goal in mind. You have to delay gratification. You have to value your customers, and you have to take God seriously. If you do this, you will succeed. I don’t need to be there. You don’t need to be a pastor to succeed. You can succeed anywhere.
Yes, sir.
You know, my brother, you have learned a lot, and I know you are going to succeed.
Thank you, my father.
You are going to be successful.
Thank you, my father.
You are going to have your own car. You are going to have your own business. You are going to have your own family.
Thank you, sir.
But don’t forget what I told you. Take God seriously.
Absolutely, sir.
Do you have a Bible in your car?
Absolutely, sir.
Good. That’s good.
Yes, sir.
You can read it anytime.
Absolutely, sir.
Now, I think we have to go and rest.
Yes, sir.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, my father.
